LL final director

Ollie

Hi,

When controlling LLFIN on the old software I will band box with INTS or N but after a while the software would pass me off two aircraft in direct conflict and cause me to get a conflict report.

I wonder if this has been upgraded in the new software update?

I do understand I can request on freq or try to coordinate a new level to avoid this but it really shouldn’t be happening and it should be passing off a steady stream of de conflicted aircraft to me.

Thank you.

Khalifa

Hi Ollie,

I don’t recall conflicts when you bandbox all North/South and Final. Where do you see the conflict most?

Ollie

It’s usually, when I bandbox just FIN and south. When the system takes aircraft from LAM or BNN stacks they are often on top of each other descending to 4000, and or below 3 miles laterally. When landing on 27’s, what can happen is, two aircraft are taken from the LAM stack, they fly west separated then as the first is turned back SE they loose separation and are passed over to FIN in conflict.

Khalifa

Ollie

It’s always been like that since the AI follows a prescribed route. The only work around is to bandbox it all and have full control. The latest update is basically the same.

Ollie

If it left a little more time between taking aircraft from the stack it would be avoided :-)

CloggyUk

Leaving more time is a setting that can be changed. You have to be careful with it though. It set too low, stacks can fill up rapidly.

It comes down to a balance of the traffic rate you run and the min time between traffic coming of the stack. I have been tweaking it for the best part of 20 yrs in my settings. Still not got the optimal solution!

Ollie

Great, can you tell me where to find the setting please?

I normally play LLFIN and INTS or N on a flow rate of 9 or 10 and it can be fine for half an hour or an hour then two come off the stack too close together and even if I coordinate another level for the following aircraft it can still sometimes cause a conflict alert. Funny that when the aircraft are controlled by the system and they are not adequately separated they don't cause a conflict alert, and they can fly at the same level almost on top of each other!

CloggyUk

Hiya.

It is in the ATC.ini file. MinApproachInt or something like that. But before you go and make changes, let me explain the way the holds work!
The holds are all seen as separate entities. So there is NO coordination between them in LC like in real life. For LL, LAM, BNN, BIG and OCK are all operated separately by the automated controller.
The MinApproachInterval is the minimum time between 2 aircraft leaving the same hold. So if MinAppInt is 60 seconds it works like this: first aircraft leaves the hold fix at time 0. When the flight above it comes up to the fix it will not leave the hold if less than 60 seconds have gone by.
What you have seen happening is probably because the aircraft have left different holds. 2 aircraft can leave BNN and LAM at the same time and then end up on the same track on downwind. Changing the MinAppInt will NOT change this.

Hope this provides some clarity. Cheers, C

peter7373

Hey guys,
I used Claude to build an arrival manager for LLFIN (especially bandboxed with INTN and INTS. Please note: it is made for the way I work, and it is not for operational use. It runs on an iPad.
Open it here: https://c7wbwrj7j7-ops.github.io/London-Control/
Make it an app on iPad: open the link in Safari, tap the Share icon, then "Add to Home Screen". if you open it by pressing that button It then opens full screen like a normal app, and your data stays on the device.
I don't understand GitHub at all, so please no difficult questions. 😄
HOW TO USE IT
Add an aircraft: callsign, category (J/H/M/S/L), the fix (BNN, LAM, BIG or OCK) and the ETA over that fix.
Read the suggestion: the banner above the table tells you what to do next, for example which aircraft to hold and for how long.
Enter ATO when an aircraft is really over the fix. The planner updates the rest of the sequence.
Enter ACT when the aircraft is over the merge point.
Holding board: aircraft in the hold are listed there. Tap Release to send one out: now, at the next pass, or direct.
End session: shows your totals and statistics. Make a screenshot, because you can use these numbers in your next run.
TERMS
Fix: the entry point (BNN, LAM, BIG, OCK).
Merge: the point about 9 nm out on the localizer where all arrivals join into one stream. The tool plans the slot and spacing here.
ETA / EST: estimated time over the fix.
ATO: actual time over the fix.
ACT: actual time over the merge point.
Route time: time from the fix to the merge (BNN 8 min, LAM 5, BIG 4, OCK 5 by default).
Hold: the holding pattern. One circuit is 5 minutes by default.
EFC: expected further clearance, the time an aircraft is expected to leave the hold.
Slot: the planned time over the merge point for an aircraft.
Commit / Lock: a slot you fixed. A commit is the latest time, and a lock is an exact time.
Delay: the time lost compared to a direct flight.
Missed time: runway time lost because the next aircraft was not ready.
Empty time: gaps where no aircraft was in the slot.
Have fun, and don't tell me if something breaks!

peter7373

By the way, be advised i usually add two minutes to the time displayes in the tactical/hold list in londoncontrol. Don’t know why, but this time is never correct